Did any of you know that google still lists this place as being pretty much owned and operated by exwitches?
Why is that?
May perhaps that is why you get so many trolls of all varieties.
Just a thought.

Is this a bad thing?

-Theophilus

I cant think of the last time we had a troll here

There is no doubt about the fact, the place here needs an uplift and overhaul, which I believe is in the pipeline. I recently did a radio interview just after the main site went down...they plugged the ministry, then I had to say it was down ....still the forum is here and this little community.

*waves*

Most pagans that I've been familiar with question - rightly in my opinion, because one can never be too careful - the credentials of those who claim to be ex-witches and then converted. It's the same with every group really - Satanists suspect those that claim to be ex-Satanists, atheists suspect those that claim to be ex-atheists (though far less than religious groups IMO), and course Christians suspect and in many cases outright deny the possibility of ex-Christians.

Everyone believes that they have the truth, and that no one who once saw the truth as they did would ever leave it or change their minds.

And that is why this place used to draw such a large pagan crowd.

Aside - Hi SSB! Long time no see.

*waves back*
Also hello nightmare good to see you.

? In answer to- Does it matter?
Of course it matters. The pagan community is full of pagans not retards.

As for the rest - most pagans and occultists know who is now here and which elements are NOT.
So some find it un-nerving for google to represent you somewhat deceptively. In other words some would feel it speaks volumes of your character to have to be deceptive in order to gain the attention of your prime target-the ones you wish to wrap your religion around.
Sooooooo I thought you might want to know such things.
And that most pagans feel they are not represented correctly -if at all here.
Seriously.
They also feel your statement of faith is also somewhat sketchy and unrealistic in their eyes as it leaves more questions than it answers for one.
Also none of them could understand why you included in the opinion that you have with your religion with Christians taking other Christians to court. -mainly because you have yet to give a missions statement in correlation to it or many of the things you have listed there with it in regard to the site.
They also feel there has been a great falling away from educating Christians in regards to paganism. Which even I find to be a tad strange.

I think u maybe should consider it an issue as it seems you are unaware that the reason u no longer have trolls hacking your site or coming in to verbally spar is currently due to the fact of because no one takes you seriously.

I also know that the site has been referred to as stifling - totalitarian - stunted and insanely paranoid.
I find that disheartening as I had always hoped you guys would go on to greater nobler things with this ministry.
Please don't feed me a line of how they don't understand because they DO understand.
And there is nothing I can tell them that differs from the truth they understand concerning this place.

Here is a hint. Go to other websites and look at their layouts and how people there converse publicly and privately and then notice how none of them have had a lawsuit even though several seminars would lead you to believe they shpuld have had several.
I spoke with some one a few weeks back who was wanting to reconnect with his Christian roots but refused to come here as he claimed the site was pretty much geared at virginal unworldly sheep who had never been exposed to much of the society at large or very many nonchristian books or regular cable television as a whole.
I argued with him at first until I came and perused the site.
And now I don't know what to tell him.
He claims that EW has become the equivalent of every site it once fought to be seperated from and I fear he maybe right.

He told me that pagans deserve explanations where God's word is concerned.
That they deserve definitions explanations logical arguments and reasons..
And he was right.
I can't really argue with him.

My suggestion is you don't shoot the messenger. AND you consider some of the complaints regarding the site and don't hastily dismiss all complaints against the site.
Because like I said I only want to see EW go forth and achieve great and noble things.
Or else I wouldn't be spending my Christmas vacation with my family far from my Home and hubby and cats at 5 in the morning texting this.
If I didn't care i'd either be asleep or texting hubby.

Hi SSB

You've raised some interesting points here and I thank you.

To be honest, I never bothered to check and see what google or anyone else
says about who runs this place. I will point out though that our most active Admin
is an Ex, and while Richard is not, I am still an Ex. Admittedly there were a couple of
times this past year that i wasn''t sure that I would be able to keep it Ex..
So that puts the active admins and the owner column in the Ex camp for the most part.

As to the Statement of Faith... if it's here on the forum I'll look it up again soon, if it was
on the main site.. well... not sure how long that will be down.

You are spot on about the pagan's deserving explanations and reason. They deserve more of me
than I can give right now... and have for some time which is why I've been mostly absent
in these parts for the better part of a year.

We are still teaching the church though, mostly in other venues but still actively at it.
Hoping to get the site back up sometime fairly soon and get more data out there
to give various folks mental indigestion. Some times it sinks in though, so we keep on.
I'm sure i'm not doing enough on my part though, so here we are trying to chart a course
for that future you are speaking of, and definitely thank you for your help and in put
here.

P.S. I don't shoot the messengers... ammo is a terrible thing to waste.

Whole heartedly agreed.

Now you got me curious again XD It is, in fact, stories like this that would help the ministry's cause methinks.



Yup, it's in the Announcements and General Information section.



Would this not suggest that an increase in staff - Christian staff (as opposed to my suggestion below) - be a good idea?



A suggestion perhaps? The target audience is pagans and occultists yes? For good or ill I have a reputation with the folk that used to frequent here and CN. I doubt any of said folk would really question where I stand much. If you and the powers that be wish I would be willing to become some sort of staff here - though not a full member of the ministry of course, and I would want that made perfectly clear, due to the fact that I cannot fully sign on to the statement of faith. This would, as Cern I believe suggested before, perhaps go toward gaining so element of trust and perhaps credibility in the pagan community. It certainly couldn't hurt - as SSB notes, in that regard this place has no where to go but up. As I commented to Wolfhunter and Firestarter777 this place is, compared to what it was, a ghost town.

Just offering my services (shrug)

Hi SSB good to see you on the www.



I take it you have visited the same sites I have seen when I take a break from study.
The parody site says it all.When the indignation of old has given way to the most banal of humour something has gone wildly awry.

When was the main site last updated?
When did anyone bother to sit down and research let alone write any articles?
Why are the links so paltry?
I am concerned when I can more freely discuss with wiccans et al on Christian forums than this one. [SSB-I will see if I can locate you elsewhere and let you have the links for your friend where pm's are permissable]


Errenous.
Richard is far too busy as a paramedic to be active and I doubt that Anita would claim to have been more than RHP lite with a hefty does of Spiritulism.
Your own absence whilst claiming Admin' has been noted, it has not been simply the better part of a year it has been far longer. This makes the active admins one RHP lite -an absent exRHP and an absent site owner - this simply does not carry any weight.
I see no evidence of other active admins or mods engaging in discussion, research, writing or similar making some of the aims and objectives null and void.

Excellent and thought provoking posts - great and thanks!

YES - I humbly and fully admit I am an ex fluffy BUT ....very interested in doing what I believe God wants me to do and that is talk, connect and somehow share with those in those paths - heck may as well be an ex fluffy here to help soften things up. So I just keep on keeping on

Hoping things could get off the ground with EXWitch, very happy to come off staff if fluffies are not needed to make room for the Ex LHP's

Oh and NM - things are mellow here nowadays but I think thats because nobody can be bothered with arguments anymore and as for me, Ive become more trusting in the HS to speak to people HIS way on deeper matters.

While this is a good thing in terms of attitude there is a problem. If people can't "be bothered with arguments" that also means in a way that no one truly wants to engage the other side (so to speak). Lack of engagement leads to stagnation, which leads to loss of traffic (though it really can't get much worse in terms of active posting), which leads to obscurity and finally the death of the forum - tis a self reinforcing trend.

What needs be - IMO - is engagement of the metaphoric other side, meeting those arguments (ad infinitum if necessary - tis the cost of ministry) but in a manner of reasonable debate, not with animosity or heavy handedness. For this to truly work, some of the rules may have to change in order to generate good faith with the audience (namely the ones about links and PMs - while I've given up trying to make anything of it I'm willing to bet a good number of pagany folk share my original perception that disallowing such basic features of internet life is somehow dishonest). This ministry is working from some major disadvantages, as SSB and Caitlin noted, and in order to overcome them "business as usual" simply won't work.

Again though I'm simply offering advice as to how to start to remedy the situation. In the end, I have little stake in how matters progress, being largely along for the ride (shrug)

Hi Anita,

There is nothing wrong with being an ex-fluffy given that most of the world is peopled by those who also have a fluffy mindset. Fluffy Christians however do tend to be a violent breed when compared with fluffy wiccans - disagree with how they say the world should be and they will try to tear you to ribbons. Please note that only one denomination/movement of mainstream Christian could sign in total agreement of this sites statement of faith that excludes many part of the body [1Corinthian's12 vs 14-31 and I also suggest 1 Corinthians13 as well]

Further the rules clearly state that this forum is 'family friendly' and that explicitly and loudly states that discussions on anything that is LHP will not be permitted. I doubt that any from the LHP would be interested in taking over from you and mod'ing let alone admin'ing on a moribund forum. Why would any who have a LHP mindset want to be here when there are other forums that do allow philosophical/theological and ethical discourse on grown up subjects without using apophasis to try to infer without depth as seems to be used by some here. This forum has banned citations which would allow people to follow another's thinking even if they disagree. Even Jeff Harshbarger who struggle with academic citation allows those. Here I could not cite a Christian theological book, provide a link to its google book version let alone dare apply good apologetic rationale to the lightest of eclectic wicca let alone any grimoire in the public domain.
In removing this and replacing with subjective supposition only this site has lost the right to claim it educates people about what current pagans, witches et al believe.

No one bothers to come here to have arguement's because there is no one here capable of entering into discourse with them.

The only reason I logged on today was to let Richard know his email seems to have been hacked and has been sending out some very dubious URL's - I see no real discussions.

*raises eyebrow* Though it would seem you disagree, tis certainly not for lack of effort on some of our parts. And, though I do now remember you from the old EW, that is all I shall say.

I can agree that the forum has been slow, and less confrontational than in the past, I'll agree with Nightmare that some of us have made efforts in our discussions, and for my part have benefited from these.

That said I miss the folks over at CN and regret that that forum went dormant some time ago. I'd like to see measures taken to restore EW to a more active and welcoming forum that allows greater freedom of expression, PM and linkwise certinly as well as a committed and active admin staff. I appreciate NM's offer to take on limited staff functions and note that CN welcomed Christian participation in what was a Pagan hosted forum that included a Christian folder and moderators who were welcome at a staff folder for forum wide admin matters. The discussions there were certainly active and engaging although it was understood that the CN forum was neither a Christian nor Pagan ministry. I appreciate SSB for rasing the issue and hope that our hosts will consider well what their intentions are for this site.

-Theophilus

Theophilus,

You are erudite and on other forums I occasionally see you post on I do enjoy the structure of your arguements. Those forums also contain better examples of discussions between the flotsam of other forum posts.


Concur. CN did manage to cope with dialogue between different groups but it has appears to have demised unless its name and URL have changed.

I would welcome news that active theological reflection in regards to both the mission aims and statement of faith have been engaged with provided a mission shape was then presented. There is a dying world out there.

Nightmare- since that time so many years ago I was invited to flex where the eagles learn to fly for as long as I find such a place useful. I think the phrase I shall use is one of stuff the narrow constraining Evangelical narrative that other Christians tried to force upon me - God is more than any of us could ever imagine - Via Negativa!

Nightmare wrote:


Yup gotchya and agree. On a personal note, I have become stagnant here but always hope for things to change and liven up. I truly love discussion, debate and juxtapositions I love thnking through things and moving forward - growing and community does that - discussion in community like this anyway. I dont know, its just been so long that the forum has been barely crawling that my mind has slowed to snail pace (no smart comments here please )...

This has been the most interesting thread here for ages.


Oh and as for no ex LHP on staff, I seem to remember that there this hasnt been the issue in the past. Caitlin were you not yourself on staff?

The old forum had a folder callled Miklat or something?? IMO, it should make a return. If recuperating the main site is a problem because of spamalot, a new site should be formed all together with refreshed articles and clear intention of ministry. If funds are a problem, they can be sourced im sure...

Im feelin pumped

What, exactly, does everyone want for EW? There are options; it does not have to remain the way it is now. Keep in mind, however, that there are time constraints and financial limitations.

Chris

couple months back.the error is yours.
He is indeed rather busy and has been for some time.

no... it makes the active admins: One Ex-RHP/spiritualist, a less than active Non-Ex, and an occasionally posting
Ex for a site owner.

I will also take this juncture to point out that there were pagans that didn't take EW seriously even
when YOU were on staff here.

SSB's concerns have been noted and I agree with some of them and have been
attempting to address them for a while now. When we're ready the site will be back
up and will have been re-written, which should take care of some of them.

Actually CN was a pagan ministry, meant if I recall correctly to inform folk about paganism in general and Celtic versions thereof in particular. Essentially an "anti-EW" as it was felt EW was not presenting are accurate picture of paganism. There may have been more to the mission statement, but I forget if so. FW might remember (he and I were both mods there).



Indeed And very much agreed. Thank you Caitlin







That is was. As to a return, I would almost see such an area where rule #4 is somewhat more relaxed as necessary to any serious dealings with serious pagans. Without such in depth discussion - which I have often flirted with here I may add - reaching serious pagans is not very likely.



Well, that would IMO largely be up to those who are a part of the ministry to say. As I am not my opinion of what EW should ideally be is irrelevant.

Not sure about it being irrelevant....all thoughts should and would be considered im sure...

Mark,

Where on this site are these articles? It would be good to see at least one well researched and formally cited article after a five year hiatus. Sacred Tribes Journal should provide a good template of what Christian outreach ministers and pagans et al would like to see.

Why should pagans et al take ExW seriously just because I ended up on staff- I would far rather they took Christ seriously and they certainly will not if false witness is borne over what they believe.

For now there is a parody site running on the same templates that those in Christian churches will assume are you.


Nightmare,
Glad you got my comment on that. I suggest given this forums rules if you wished to chat over apothatic concepts come find me at Cerns place. My leave ends this evening when I once again roll up my sleeves and go back to the responsibilities of church leadership. Vastly over-rated IMHO- but I do drop in at Cern's forum from time to time between work and study.

The way that I see it is that a number of issues have been raised that worth considering and have been noted already.

I would say that because Pagans are meant to be the main stakeholders here, that their views should be seriously considered, particularly the view that they've put forward over the past year about the need for the focus / mission of the forum to be changed.

From a non-pagan perspective, I do remember the Miklat folder in the previous version of EW and I learnt a lot from that (it seriously debunked quite a few myths that the churches that I were in circulated).

I think that the PMs also should be restored if more sensitive topics are to be discussed on a more one-to-one basis if people are more comfortable with that. I corresponded with a couple of people outside of the forum within the past year and I found this correspondence particularly valuable in understanding the Pagan perspective.

I would also like to add that everyone has something to contribute which, whether 'light', or 'indepth', can present different ways of thinking or ideas that potentially enriches discussions.

Many points were raised in Caitlin's post about the need to be able to include links and citations that would allow people to explore ideas more thoroughly, and this is good, but to make a subjective statement of seeing 'no real discussions' or stating that there's no-one who would be able to enter into discourse with visitors is way off-base.

Everyone has something that someone else can benefit from, from the theological pros to church lay people.

This is a public forum, not a theological college.

Well, being as I'm not a part of the ministry here - or even a Christian according to any conventional understanding of the term - it would be presumptuous of me to assume that my preferences should hold any weight to the owners and staff of the ministry.



Hmm, that could be why the lot at Dunamis Word were unwilling to come here. Thank you again Caitlin, I hadn't thought of that.



No prob - I'll certainly give the place another once over (Pagan & Christian Moot right?). I think I may already have an account over there, don't remember.