So last night I was prompted to call on the Holy Spirit in regard to a matter (answers for a question or two). What followed was.....odd. For the first millisecond the familiar power rush hit, and then...nothing. Not nothing as in nothing but as in complete calm and harmony. Kinda like the heart of a hurricane, beyond the eyewall. When it spoke, it was calm and quiet, almost computer-like in terms of precision, and it spoke in third person to boot. It just felt so....foreign. Not alien, like the things behind the Cthulhu Mythos, but foreign, one step removed almost.

I didn't like it in the least Left me feeling different, "off". Took a good shake to clear the head and tapping into ye olde Chaos current before I felt like myself again.

Thoughts? Can anyone else describe encounters they've had with the holy spirit?

OK.

Ive had warm tides of silk flowing over and through me (comforting and caring) and Ive had pressing weight from above so that even flat on the floor wasnt low enough for me to be and then there has been the pulsing fire rush - almost scary. The convictions and gentle but stern warnings from the Holy Spirit is where Im at right now - it seems... He is being tuff with me right now on more than a few issues.

The feeling for me is one of being in the presents of an ancient wisdom. At the same time, He can be a school master who, as Anita said, will let know of His displeasure about any unapproved behavior.

He has provided me with discernment, comfort, and an overwhelming feeling of love. He is in fact God Who works to create the mind of Christ in saints.

What has made you idenitfy the source of this experience as coming from the Holy Spirit? How did you identify the source?

Warm Regards!

Simple - I called out for the holy spirit, and that's what I got. As with my Lord I must ask you this: if this be not the real holy spirit (or Jesus) why then did the real one not answer his metaphoric phone when called?

Further, please answer those questions in regards to yourself.

Nightmare - Did you have an easy calling? My experience with Yahweh is that he really doesn't like being brought down to the level of his peers. I don't blame him of course. I might expect something similar of The Holy Spirit, but since I can't recall ever calling to it in that fashion, I was wondering what sort of experience you had.

fhg1893, just to be clear, you seem to be regarding yourself as a God or at least the peer equal of a God. Is that truly how you view yourself?

Maybe, but I don't think so...

The gods virtually always (I don't think I've ever had a request denied) respond favorably to my requests for blessings. In doing so, they effect a minor physical change in the world. Yahweh does not like doing this, at least not for me. He puts up what could be called a fight, but a little determination seems to cause him to acquiesce.

In short, do I consider myself a peer of the Gods? No. Does the above make me into a peer of the Gods? Well, I don't think so, but maybe. I really don't like to think of myself as a peer. Do I consider myself a God? In short no. While I believe that humanity is imbued with a spark of divinity, I don't think this equates one to being a God.

Admittedly, I'm not sure how the "relationship" described above effects things in a grander scheme...

Interesting and thank you for the clarifications. I can agree that there is a spark of the divine in humankind to include the ability to relate to them. I don't think we are them however, nor do I understand us to be able to force them to acquiesce to our demands. Could you elaborate further on this please?

My experience of it, in childhood, was a sort of corrosive weight, something I envisioned as a holy brown cloud.

I will try, bearing in mind that even we, Pagans, Witches, Druids etc don't have a full understanding of this yet.

I can appreciate that I made it sounds like doing magick is all about kicking the Gods around, but that's not really the case. We understand magick the subtle manipulation of energy that flows through existence. Since this same energy is universal, you could, and some do, call it "God." For myself, I believe that there is some truth to this, but it's a little more complicated than that. I believe that the axiom, "If triangles had a God, then he would have three sides," holds true. I believe that we humans with our thoughts and our energy shape this energy into beings which are meaningful to us. Consequently, we are shaped as well. I term this co-creation since we create, and are created in turn. The split between us and say, astral reality is a bit like a mirror. What we send to the astral or ethereal reflects and shapes us equally. What we send is reflected in us. This is admittedly a sort of nuanced understanding of karma.

Thus, we are therefore capable of effecting and moving the Gods through proper focus and concentration. This isn't typically something done lightly since they are capable of doing the same to us, and we don't go around kicking their doors down because that tends to reflect badly on us. I know it's not your thing, but I'll go back to the Eucharist for a second. I'm not really talking about the transubstantiation its self, more, the ritual its self, is very much analogous to most Pagan ritual. It's been a while since I've been to communion, but if I remember correctly the priest blesses the host and the wine. He effectively calls, or channels the Holy Spirit into them, so that they can be transformed into the body and blood of Christ.

Please bear with me, I'm not saying you have to buy that, I'm just parroting the official line.

I think, probably ideally there would come a point where the Priest performing the ritual would "feel" that the change had been complete. I think also that he probably visualizes the Holy Spirit descending from above and entering the bread and wine. That's why the mass calls for the priest to hold up the chalice.

While this is admittedly speculation on my part, or perhaps projection, I can tell you with a reasonable amount of certainty that Pagans do this. We hold up our chalice and visualize a deity interacting with it in some meaningful way, as a blessing. By eating or drinking blessed food and drink, we commune and share with our deities. Through experimentation, I've discovered that what a participant says, and visualizes has a definite impact. In other words, Zeus for instance doesn't really respond to "Hey Zeus! Get in my wine!" but does respond to something more respectful. I'd post an example, but I'm worried about overstepping the rule on not posting magic. If you're curious, I can probably find some examples of Greek prayer which would have the proper framework for calling upon Zeus.

Now, Zeus, and most of the Greeks aren't too picky about the details of calling on them. They like a little reverence, but overall, they aren't too concerned if they're being invited to a party or a funeral. I like to think that they're happy enough to show up. Perhaps they get something out of it.

Yahweh does respond to the same kind of calling, but seems to begrudge the form, context and the person calling upon him. I can't be sure, but I think he responds more favorably to Christians and Jews than Pagans. Yahweh probably also prefers to be called in a Church, on a Sunday, but I haven't tested this, so admittedly, it's pure speculation based on my understanding.

How I could compel him? Well, since we can both manipulate the fundamental energy of the universe, my personal suspicion is that Yahweh actually wants to show up anyway, and does so begrudgingly because the caller, me, does not conform to his very narrow definition of worthiness. Ultimately though, when I called, what was normally a near instant feeling of change, seemed to take more energy, more focus and more concentration. Considerably more than any of the others, thus, I describe it as a struggle. The change that Yahweh effects in the world when he makes his presence known however, is actually the most evident compared to the others. Where the others effect a change that can be a little subjective, Yahweh leaves no doubt.

I realize I'm being vague, but more details might be construed as posting magick. I hope that this clarifies, and is enough for our discussion.

Fhg wrote:

Er...no its all fine, Ive been conducting my own personal study on transubstantiation so find the similiarities you draw very interesting although have previously read similar accounts...

I tracked down a video demonstrating the celebration of the Eucharist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qynP0ZO0zMY&feature=related

There are two moments in the consecration which are very similar to Pagan ritual. Specifically, they are the moments at 1:09, and from about 1:34 to about 2:01. The gestures are so similar, that I'm inclined to think that we "borrowed" most of it... Then again, there may not be many gestures to do when consecrating bread and wine, so it might just be universal.

Anyway, I was going to also give an example of calling upon a deity. I'll break this down a bit too.

To call Zeus, I might say, "I call now upon the great Sky-Father. Gracious cloud gatherer, he who descends in thunder and lightning. Lord of Olympus, Zeus! Or by whatever name you might choose for yourself, I ask that you...."

It breaks down like this. First, I say what I'm doing. Then I string together a series of epithets and phrases that are supposed to get the attention of the deity I'm looking for. Christians don't say "Hey Yahweh, get over here!" and neither do we. Christians say, "Our Father, who art in heaven..." The epithets I might use are, sky-Father which is one of my own epithets to Zeus. It symbolizes Zeus' place in up in the sky, and his role as father, patron of the the Gods, and of mortals. Gracious is another epithet of Zeus, while cloud-gatherer is my own interpretation of his wielding the lightning bolt. He who descends in thunder and lighting is another historical epithet, that doesn't really need much in the way of explanation. I hope, that Lord of Olympus doesn't need to be explained. The words "Or by whatever name you choose for yourself," are borrowed from antiquity. A classics professor described the practice saying that while the Greeks called Zeus Zeus, they admitted they didn't necessarily know his real name. He might be called Cthulhu, but they didn't know. And since the Greeks acknowledged the power of the gods, and didn't want to cause offense by using an insulting name, they'd allow for the possibility that Zeus wasn't really Zeus' name, and hopefully, he wouldn't smite them for just for bothering him. I carry on the tradition as I consider it respectful to acknowledge the limits of human knowledge. Names are also important, so we try to treat the names of deities with some reverence. After I've gotten the attention I'm seeking, treated my guest with respect, I then proceed to ask for whatever I'm asking for.

Lest this be misconstrued as magick, this is basically the form of a Greek prayer, which could almost certainly be found in any resource that deals with the subject in detail. Basic stuff that both Christians and Pagans have in common.

They perhaps think so.
and yes, there is some interesting similarities to various rituals around the globe.
*shrugs*

Yeah it was cake. I was already yakking with Christ and he suggested I do it. So I just called out with a projected thought ("Holy spirit please come to me" IIRC) and a couple seconds later I got what I initially described.

Twas more than I expected actually - I've always conceived of the holy spirit as non-sapient and this at least appeared to be sapient enough to hold a conversation. Now whether that is reflective of true sapience or simply some elaborate sort of user interface, I can't say.

For what it's worth, contact with Jesus was (and continues to be) initiated in the same manner. I've gotten rather good at this sort of "astral phone call" technique interacting with my Lady over the past five years - though it does get rather annoying when her and Jesus both try to "talk" at the same time, as I only have one "phone line" so to speak and all that results is gibberish.



Heh, I certainly act like I am That is, I speak to them in the same fashion I do the folks here or anywhere else, indeed perhaps with a bit more familiarity even. There's respect to be certain, but tis a very informal sort of thing. And when they torque me off they get yelled at same as anyone else. I think they (Hekate and Jesus definitely do) find that amusing



Agreed, but then so is everything else.



I think it's like Phil Hine stated "Again, it's a small thing, and rarely mentioned, but there's a difference between a 'magician' thinking he has a right to 'summon the Great Old Ones', and a magician who feels a sense of kinship with them, and so doesn't have to call. Anyone can call them, but few can do so out of a nodding acquaintance born of kinship. There's a great difference between doing a rite, and having the right."



The weaker ones you can via binding and the like, but it's an incredibly jerkish thing to do IMO and a good way to make enemies.



Ummm, y'know now I really wanna try that to see if I'd work

(visual - cramming Zeus into a glass of wine cartoon style)



Given that he's the god of the world's largest single religion tis not surprising.



*nods* Agreed muchly - the names we use are IMO basically more akin to common titles than anything else.

Interesting. Why so different for us four I wonder?

Myself, I never tasted blood or meat in that grape juice and (pathetically small) cracker

I have, actually. Though, I suspect it had more to do with the strange, thick wine and leavened bread used in our local Byzantine mission, and far less to do with the miraculous. I tend not to get that lucky, or, at least, not in that sort of way.

Regardless, the taste lingered for ages and it was a little disturbing and very distracting for the rest of the liturgy (which, I guess, is fair enough since we believe that the Eucharist is the point of the liturgy, basically). Of course, the reason it was so strange was that most people don't believe that bread and wine magically become blood and human flesh. The Catholic and Orthodox and other churches I am familiar with who do believe in the "real presence," certainly don't teach it.

It's a concept more clearly rooted in the very precise and headache-inducing philosophy so loved by the Medievals. The idea is that the substance of the bread and wine is transformed into Christ, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, while the "accidents," the attributes that make bread into bread and wine into wine remain.

It's rather like the Catholic understanding of all the Sacraments, really. We believe that Baptism, for example, changes you indelibly, conforms you to Christ, but yet the change isn't physical. When I was baptized, things changed. I changed in very real and sometimes confusing ways, and yet... my DNA stayed the same. I was still little old unremarkable me. So it is, for us, anyway, with Transubstantiation.

Cheers,

V

Luckier than you think perhaps dear The churches I've been around have had all the spirituality of a brick.



Can we get into this in more detail and comparison sometime? As you know, I was baptized Catholic at birth (and later via an evangelical ceremony), so this is perhaps an interesting area of exploration.

Sure we can. It's a personal interest of mine, really, having spent the better part of 5 years trying to figure out what on earth happened. Heh.

I can start a new thread either later today or perhaps sometime this weekend, or you can. Whatever works.

Cheers,

V

You have a very unique relationship with the trinity...



DUDE! Quick screwing with the Matrix's BIOS! LOL!

I'm sorry, that's actually very interesting, I just couldn't resist making that joke.



Ah that curious species of pantheism. I can appreciate that. Sapience however seems to be a gift that is very limited however. We seem to be one of the very few, if not the only species on Earth that can make use of that divinity.



That's interesting. I've never considered that before...



And potentially more powerful ones...



LOL! My understanding is that you have to do that sort of thing with the Norse pantheon. At least that sort of tone, it's what they expect. Or so I heard...



Well, I get the impression that the names we use are probably correct. It would strike us as weird to constantly answer to the name Stan when your name was Murray. If you answer to Stan, then aren't you Stan?

I hope you didn't take offense at my questions--they were asked as a way of clarifying and not hostility.

As you well know, there are myriads of spiritual entities out and about. I have know people who experienced communion with counterfeit Jesus and Holy Spirit entities. I know of one case of spirit possession where the demon gave its name as Jesus, only it wasn't from Nazareth.

I don't doubt the validity of the experience you had; only the true identity of the spirit you communed with. It may have been the true Holy Spirit, and that was why the experience left you feeling off. Chaos Magic and Christian spirituality are diametrically opposed. They are like oil and water.

If you would, tell me a little about how you came in contact with Jesus. Was it during a trance state, or did you receive the communication while addressing another spirit. That will help me fill in more of the gaps. Thanks.

With respect, Erasmus.

Heh, "unique" certainly does describe it well. (Messed up might work too) With two outta three I guess - ain't met YHVH yet, not really certain I want to either....



That was frikken awesome bro



You are I think conflating sapience and spark of divinity into the same or similar things (or the later causing the former). IMO having the later does not imply the former is possessed, at least by every individual of a species. At best, most species on Earth assume an animistic collective spirit as a result of said spark IMO.



Potentially yes, but it's not something I'd recommend.



*nods* I've heard similar things, but can't say with any authority. Never worked much with the gods of my ancestors, though apparently the All Father still looks with some favor on me for some unknown reason.



Heh. My mom answers to the name Beavis - tis a pet name I have for her from back when the show was on (I don't know why I started calling her that, just did). Tis a similar principle in some cases I think.

A little bit, but nothing major - we cool



I so have to do a thread on this.



May I ask why?



On a personal level, agreed - calm and harmonious is not exactly something I am, even when calm and harmonious (if you get what I mean).

On a theoretical level, definitely agreed. Christianity requires a steadfast commitment to one belief set, whereas Chaos Magic (as it is commonly practiced) involves using belief as a tool and thus shifting belief as necessary, as mood dictates, and occasionally according to the tightness of one's underwear

The only reason I don't see my practice of Chaos Magic as diametrically opposed on a theoretical level to Christian spirituality is because I don't rely on belief shifting but rather belief amalgamation - adding multiple beliefs onto each other to form a Frankenstein-esqe whole. This inevitably leads to contradiction, but in the few cases where such cannot be somehow resolved I generally just respond with a "meh"



After my Lady Hekate pestering me for nearly a month to do so, I just called out to Jesus with a projected thought and - surprisingly - he answered. (please understand that in all cases here I'm talking about "mind's ear" communication - similar to the classic voices in your head type thing, but not as obvious foreign as that implies)

Damn, I wish I had payed more attention to this post in particular.


May I humbly ask, how many times did you taste blood? Was any family with you, and who presided over the liturgy?

I have experienced nearly identical phenomena, though in very different context.

Hmm... Why am I thinking of "the beauty and uniqueness of creation" type things?



You know after I made that joke, I realized it could be applied equally to the film, and Shadowrun. How's that for witticism?



Interesting, but no, I was actually stating that sapience is precursor to making use of the spark of divinity inhabiting the world.



Yeah, I think the presence of an entities potential "bigger brothers" turns it into a pretty bad idea.



That's interesting. I should have more in common with them based on roots, but for some reason I'm drawn to the Mediterranean in general, and the Aegean in particular.



Names and labels are very interesting like that. I guess she's Beavis to you then...