1. Do you think the Astral Plain exists? Why or Why not?
2. Do you believe in Spirit Guides? Why or Why not?
3. Do you believe Chakras exist? Why or Why not?
4. Do you believe that Astral Projection violates any spiritual laws? Or not? Please explain

Just curious...



~~

On a personal level, I do know that I was absoloutely no longer interested in pursuing all of the above any longer after commitment to Christ. All of the above is extremely dull and empty to me.

If I were to be technical and if I had time right now (which I dont im on the road) I would give what I would believe as scripture to support my stance that a Christian should not bother themself in such pursuits.

Thanks for the questions.

Looking forward to that.

Yes - due to personal and trusted anecdotal experience.



Yes - due to extensive personal experience.



Yes, but their existence is partially subjective. That is, if the person understands the "organs" of the astral/spiritual body as chakras then to that person they will appear as chakras. The individual's beliefs in this case color his or her perceptions



(shrug) 1) Define "spiritual laws" ; 2) Not like I'd care if it did

Hmmm...similar to physical laws; 2nd law of Thermodynamics, gravity, etc...

Only...spiritual. You know how sometimes certain things are done and it's like you sense that some law somewhere got broken?

Ah, I think I see what you mean. In that regard, yes and no. Yes in the sense that the soul is supposed to stay shackled to the body throughout life, only briefly drifting out of phase (so to speak) during things like dreams and use of hallucinogens. Thusly, astral projection is an act of magic - employing the will to change the normal state of reality. No in the sense that reality is built to allow for such - we don't die immediately when we project - and thus the practice is sort of exploiting a loop hole.

I see what you're saying; but like...I mean in a moral sense. Like, it's illegal to speed--but when you do it, you get pulled over for it. That's kind of what I mean when I said broken. Sorry about the lack of clarification. Another example (this time from personal experience): there were times when I would accept sparring matches with some folks who'd challenge and just b/c I accepted them, I knew that I was violating some law somewhere. It wasn't until later on that I read the following from Sun Tzu's The Art of War...


He would later go on to state that you can have the greatest terrain, greatest weather, greatest everything to your advantage--but if you violated the moral law, even though you might win the war, you still "lost"! Now mind you; there is an all-pervasive...something that permeates this universe and gives it life--the Bible calls him the Holy Spirit. It is He who gives life to the plant life and animals and allows men to keep on breathing. If you go against him, then you break his law and you "lose"!

This was a shock to me b/c I already knew that this was true in the realm of warfare--and it was before I ever picked up The Art of War and read it!

Hence the question; do you think that astral projection violates any spiritual laws?

As an aside - sparring is not the same as killing. I don't see how it would violate any moral law, save perhaps if you would habitually get so enraged in the match that you wished to kill your opponent. Myself, I consider sparring a form of play and practice



I have unfortunately never got around to reading the Art of War. Tis still on my reading list. Fortunately I don't plan to conquer the world any time soon



I'm perhaps a poor one to ask this question to but here we go. In the moral sense, it is my stance that magic (including personal forms such as astral projection) is largely a tool - the morality of it depends on how it is used. If one uses astral projection for exploration and growth or for aiding in the healing of distant individuals (or similarly benevolent goals) I would not say that there is a moral problem there. If one uses the technique to stalk and unjustly spy on others, or to aid in the harming of distant individuals then yes one is violating a moral law unless circumstance presents mitigating conditions (ie spying on terrorists, attempting to kill Bin Ladin, etc).

Note however that I am speaking from my perspective. Most Christians would say that as a form of magic astral projection is inherently evil - a view which I consider not only short sighted but a form of putting God in a box so to speak.

As regards Christian knowledge. Is God short sighted then?

"Do not interpretations belong to God?" - Joseph wrote this at Genesis 40 verse 8.

And this is what God wrote at Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 10 and 11 regarding magic, sorcery and divination.

See it for yourself. What is God's view on these matters? Can we interpret it "our" way or God's way?

Perhaps we just like to interpret it the best way for ourselves? A way that is not from God whatsoever.

It is--but motivation and intent is probably why I had the "leading" not to get involved with the sparring match. Or maybe it was b/c God knew that the person challenging me was doing it for the wrong reason--I don't know. All I know is that while there is a time to accept a challenge, not every challenge is to be taken b/c God's Spirit doesn't always allow it.




LOL!

I didn't either--I only read it to look for basic application of principles. One of them was that fighting styles and stances, while they are good, are not to be focused upon but rather, "fluidity of motion"--like water (and they actually used that term too).

Meet, greet, escort...something like that. Go with the flow of opponent instead of against it.



Hmmm...

I think that the main problem with both atral projection and magic is the overemphasis on the person's willpower to acheive results. Sure God gave you a will--but it's meant to be aligned with His own and not only that, doing THIS is BETTER then astral projection OR magic put together! I know this from what little experience that I do have. If a person believes and practices both witchcraft and astral projection, then pride slowly consumes them. This isn't a good thing but rather, a bad thing. Not only that, it spiritually confuses a person's mindset and way of living.

In God's Kingdom, it works differently; A.W. Tozer once said, "Before we can say 'Thy kingdom come', we must first say 'my kingdom go'." This is the ESSENCE of Christianity--to align one's will with God's instead of with self is, by far, the BEST way of doing things! The GIFTS and BENEFITS are not be the motivation for prayer, giving thanks (worship), and/or the faithful study of God's Word--RATHER, a mere LOVE FOR GOD should suffice one's motivation for both reading and studying His Word and listening to Him speak on a day to day basis! This is why it says, "Give us THIS DAY our DAILY bread." I tried the astral projection thing once--but I found myself becoming more and more confused inside the harder and harder I tried and on top of things, God's Spirit began to warn me against doing it! He reminded me of something that He had already told me at Bible school concerning "Travel in the Spirit" vs "Spirit travel (astral projection).



That's the original translation! It happened to the prophets who prophesied in Israel; God would pick them up by their armpits and set them down in a spiritual (or physical) place in order to prophecy to whomever HE said for them to prophecy to! Once they finished the job...shoomp! Like a sword into a sheath, God placed 'em back into their bodies! Didn't happen that way with all of 'em--some of 'em, just had panoramic visions of the future or of the place where they were at or where they were going to and then, they'd wake up!

"Everybody's hardwired different!" Take Elisha; God yanked his spirit out of his body so that Elisha would see what his greedy servant, Gahazi, was doing! Then, Gehazi goes upstairs to serve the prophet and the prophet rebukes him for his greed and under God's authority, smites 'im with an illness!

Note that Elisha didn't have to visualize Gehazi or Naaman, who was the man Gehazi was chasing after--he was simply taken to the place where Gehazi was BY GOD'S SPIRIT (not by his own will!) Once again...the problem with Astral Projection and witchcraft (magic) is that the focal point is the person's will! Satan, in confronting Christ, said "PROVE you're God's Son--WILL that these stones become bread!" But Christ answered by basically saying that a person doesn't live by his own will but by what God says for him to do!

Finally, the famous Chinese philosopher, Lao Tzu, once said "You can travel anywhere in the world and still be in the comfort of your living room." And you know, he's right; you CAN travel anywhere in the world and still be at...wherever you are (and no, I'm not talking about the internet ). But the REAL issue is this...

By WHO'S AUTHORITY are you leaving your bedroom to travel all over the world--is it your OWN or is by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT'S WILL? That's the only difference between "Astral Projection" and "Travelling in the Spirit" and the ONLY difference between "GOD'S miracle working power" and "SATAN'S miracle working power." Satan can heal, I don't doubt it; Satan can perform miracles just like Jesus did; Satan can do a whole LOT of things--but you know what? Satan ISN'T Jesus; Satan ISN'T God!

Therefore, the OUTCOME of the miracle or healing is going to be DIFFERENT--it all hinges on who's authority the healing or miracle is done in! THAT'S the difference!

Cheers!

~

*headtilts* the way i view it is that the human body is evolved in such a way to sense these things. if it wasnt, we wouldent O_o. does moving an arm violate any spiritual laws O_o?

How does one get "God is short sighted" from "a view which I consider not only short sighted but a form of putting God in a box so to speak"? I don't understand people *shakes head*



God or whomever wrote Deuteronomy? I for one would prefer to follow a god than a book.



If "interpretations belong to God" we can obviously interpret it any way we please

I must first ask, if you already had you mind made up as to the answer - and it seems you did - why ask the question? It seems to me that you wished to lure me into stating my stance so that you could preach at me. I'm not sure I like that





1) You said yourself "not everything in this life only requires spiritual knowledge." Now that being the case, how is "overemphasis on the person's willpower to achieve results" even possible? Achieving anything in this world (or any other) requires willpower - if one thinks otherwise it's likely because they have accomplished nothing.

2) If one's will is only "meant to be aligned" with God's and we are meant to do nothing on our own, how then is that different from being a robot or a dog (see the Automatic Christians thread)? Your last statement in the second quote sounds precisely like those by Adomaday that you were speaking against.

3) It is entirely possible to align one's will to a god's and still work magic. In fact, a common branch of magical practice emphasizes just this - you can see it in any common book on Wicca, paganism, or spellcraft.

4) It is entirely possible to align one's will (ie desire and work towards the same ends and goals) as God's and still work magic. Aside from the proscriptions in the Torah I see nothing preventing this. Further, many Christian practices (outlined in the NT to boot) are common occult techniques. All I see is alot of people insisting that "Nooooo! We've so much better and more moral than youuuuuuu!" while doing the same exact thing. See the old Do Christians Practice Magic thread - my opinion has not changed on the matter.



As I said, megalomania is one of the major traps of occult practice.



That is likely because you aren't meant to be doing such. Not all are, nor should they be. The fact that you became "more and more confused inside the harder and harder I tried" alone tells me you don't have what it takes to handle such things.



BINGO! This is the key of the matter I think. Not all are meant to partake of every pursuit in the world. People have different strengths and different gifts.



IE put a curse on the man.



Regardless, the result was the same though was it not? Further, how do we know "Elisha didn't have to visualize Gehazi or Naaman"? Because the writer didn't mention it? If that be the case you are now placing your faith in the writer of that particular text - not to mention every editor and copyist since.



And what difference does it make? This world (and others) are not a court Lauren. "Authority" means precisely squat. Claim "authority" to a demon and it'll laugh in your face - been there, done that. What matters is not some make believe "I'm in charge" authority, but what one can and what one cannot do. I guarantee you, a person healed cares not so much who did it or how it was done but simply that they were healed.

The simply matter is that some of us can do these things of our own (not Jesus's, not Satan's, nor anyone else's) ability. You would have us reject our gifts in fear of Satanic influence and the horrible crime of having a will. I say to you this - If we are given gifts, is it not more of a crime to not use them to help others?



[sarcasm]But of course it does Soule! Moving your arm means you have a will of your own and aren't relying totally on God to make your every move! So the best thing to do of course would be to chop off your arms so you aren't tempted use your Satanic ability to move them![/sarcasm]

Well, you don't really want to change your ways on chaos magic--but that didn't stop you from posting some topics on it (and a host of other various topics as well about other things as well). In that case, why should MY bias mean that I post absolutely NOTHING at all? If I see something, search it out, and find out I'm wrong, I'll change my point of view accordingly. That's why this is a "forum."



Having said that, since when was it a crime to know what Nightmare thinks? Methinks Nightmare would be overjoyed to learn that somebody wants to actually discuss astral projection instead of writing it all off (like most do). You know, even adamoday couldn't handle the verse about Elisha (even though the original Hebrew confirms that Elisha was clearly outside of his body!)

You're right about something else too; the Bible doesn't say that Elisha didn't visualize where he was going. It really doesn't--but here's the thing; I've read through the major and minor prophets and many times when they "went for a trip", God's spirit picked them up and took them there and set 'em down in that spiritual (or physical) place. There is no mention made of "visualizing"; just simply the prophet talking to God and God picking him up and carrying him. That's it. The problem is, the New Age Movement read something about visualization in the Bhagavad Gita and decided to turn it into doctrine where you HAD to visualize what you were doing in order to Astral Project. But from what I understand, the Bhagavad Gita does NOT emphasize visualization but rather briefly mentions it as a tool that could AID a person in Astral Projecting. At any rate, I digress; you're absolutely right; people who don't know God have some of the same stuff happen to them that happened to the prophets of old.

BUT...there's just one problem...(and I'm surprised that you didn't catch what I said at the very end of my response earlier)...



Because Satan isn't Christ and Christ isn't Satan, the AUTHORITY behind the miracle working power is going to be DIFFERENT! THAT, my friend, is the issue! The lie is that there isn't really any "satan" or "christ"--it's just however YOU decide to use the magic that counts (hence, the expression "magic is a tool"). It's however YOU WILL to use the magic that counts--but your will doesn't have a monopoly on the magic! The devil does--he's the one who is letting you use the power temporarily. It's like paying rent on a house; you get to have it for as long as you keep making the "payments" (only the payments keep getting higher and higher until you can't pay for the house anymore and then, the owner has a legal right to put you into a debtor's prison!)

Magic IS the house; the owner is the devil. HE is letting you practice it so long as you keep "doing him favors" (which is, offering the sacrifices, going to the meetings, getting deeper involved with the magical arts, etc..) But--the cost goes up like interest and pretty soon, you discover that magic was the DEVIL'S tool (not yours) in order to make you a slave! The best part (for the devil) is that you can't escape at all!
What makes matters WORSE is that if you think about leaving, you've got those coven members following you around (not just physically, but visiting you in your sleep). Those oaths you took--they're still binding! So then, you got the demons to contend with who torment you in your sleep because you left your craft!

Look; if you want all that, ok...go ahead. But I want no part of that and I don't think that half the stuff I mentioned is something that other people here want to get involved with either.



...you don't always get what you will for--so it's no acid test for getting results. You know this to be true by experience.


As you implied earlier, the will affects the physical and spiritual aspect of our lives. All I'm trying to say is WHO are you living your life FOR? You must work for a living, be it getting a job or taking care of your fields or your self-employed job. This is why I ask: WHO are you living for? If it is not Christ, and if it is not satan, then the only thing remaining is...yourself.

Living a Christ-centered life doesn't mean becoming an ascetic--but rather, it means living a life characterized by love towards God and towards others. This is man's all--to love God with the whole being and everyone else as himself. When one does this, one's life (and will) is in conformity to the will of God. If you live only for self, then you live a very selfish, miserable existence.

...One day you, me, and everyone whose time comes, is gonna drop dead--WHO did you live for up until your time of death? WHO? Your job applications aren't gonna mean a thing in the grave; your accomplishments and deeds aren't going to mean a thing to your worm-infested corpse.

The issue is, under WHO'S AUTHORITY did you live by for all that time?



Assuming of course that the Christian God is no different then others. But...He isn't like the others but is by far SUPERIOR then them ALL! Therefore, He would have a DIFFERENT kind of kingdom then those other gods would, and not only that, He would require a different STANDARD from men then those other gods would as well!



I will check out that thread. Sounds interesting.



Occultic practice is the stairway that leads to hell--megalomania is one of its steps. Megalominia is NOT a "personal thing"--it's a spiritual thing that is very much the NATURE of the occult! The occult can be called "Devilution" (the process of becoming more and more evil). This is why I said--megalomania is at the very NATURE of the occult! You CANNOT divorce it from the occult. You can't. That's just a lie that is taught to folks so that they won't leave their craft.





...And you "have what it takes" because you're superior to me?



Of course!

What else could I have meant?





Regardless, the result was the same though was it not?[/quote]

I repeat what I said earlier...



Lol; my name is Joe. Lauren is my friend.

When I say authority, I don't just mean like a source for a fact or something. It's more along the lines of WHO'S NAME you are using and operating dynamic power by. For instance, some folks invoke the name of their high priest, other the name of a demon/spirit guide--THAT'S closer to what I'm trying to get at.

However; by AUTHORITY, I'm talking SPIRITUAL authority. The Name of Jesus was specifically what Christ gave to His disciples to use and I've read instances about the demons who got cast out in Christ's time by using Christ's Name--and also in modern times as well. There was a girl from the Phillipines who had hexed a judge right in front of everybody and at the end of three days, he had died just like she said he would. Afterwards though, from what she said, a big, furry spirit habitually attacked her towards the evening and would leave marks on her body. She was institutionalized and the doctors were there to see her fighting with...something. They also saw these marks appearing on her body but no explainable cause whatsoever. A Christian man of God was led by the Holy Spirit to confront the demon. When he did (and failed), the Holy Spirit gave him the verse "...and these kind don't go out except through fasting and prayer." So he fasted and prayed for three days and then confronted the demonic spirit again and used Christ's Name as he did the last time--the confrontation lasted all day if I'm not mistaken and in the end, the demon left her. It made the papers needless to say and her documents were released to the public.

That's what I mean when I say AUTHORITY.

~

theres no such thing as spiritual authority really. aleister crowley said it best, though the quote is highly misunderstood "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law"

its all intention. willpower. understanding and altering the flow of energy in the universe. its not that jesus did the work for the exorcist, the exorcist, through his own will and strength of belief cast out the demon. the same can be done in whatever belief system you may have. its the same for prayer, magick, and meditation. whether you like it or not, by existing, acting, and just plain thinking you are placing your intention into the universe. in this sense, christians practice magick as well. they just call it something different.

dont get me wrong, it all flows from spirit, god, jehova, whatever. people just use the flow through different means. ritual strengthens intent. hence the fasting and the praying helping to cast away the malicious will.


both.

NM...

I've looked at that thread on Magic and Do Christians practice magic; the main problem is that there is no real coherance among the pagans as to what magic is. Not only that, there is the assumption made that prayer, intercession and magic are the same thing--but they aren't!But, for sake of argument, let's just say that magic means "using your willpower to get whatever you desire." This is going to be quite a lengthy post so bear with me...

Firstly, concerning "trust in oneself alone", the scripture states...



In this verse, we find a very important lesson (and it's pretty basic); don't trust in yourself and your own heart's desires--instead, put your trust in God and He will direct you and show you where you need to go. That doesn't sound like God is advocating witchcraft, much less divination, because they both teach the OPPOSITE of this!
Magical talismans, invoking special formulas, casting spells, etc...those do NOT advocate trusting in God but a trust in self AS a god in his/her own right!

Anyways...

In Hebrew, the word "witchcraft" traces back to the root word for "divination"...



Scripture prohibits this practice in the Old Testament; to violate this law is to violate a moral law and if, as Christians, our lives are to compliment God's Word, then we should have no business going against his moral law. Witchcraft is also listed as one of the works of the sinful nature in Galatians.

In Greek, it can mean four things:

1) the use or the administering of drugs

2) poisoning

3) sorcery, magical arts, often found in connection with idolatry and fostered by it

4) metaph. the deceptions and seductions of idolatry

Concerning the will...in the Greek, it can mean at least several things:

1) to will, have in mind, intend

a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose

b) to desire, to wish

c) to love

1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing

d) to take delight in, have pleasure

Having said all that, here's another excerpt I found specifically dealing with the will...

Jfritzyb, where did that commentary come from please - interested in looking more closely at it, thanks.

Lol; I forgot to put the little "Matthew Henry" at the end of it.



It's specifically commenting on the portion of scripture, I think, on Saul's insistence that what he did was the correct thing in the eyes of God even though Samuel had already told him otherwise.

You just gave me an idea actually! I think I'm gonna go ahead and post the "Gehazi incident" and try to find those other verses about the prophets being carried by the Spirit of God.

But before I give the "prophet" scriptures, here are some Bible stories to give you some perspective on what I was talking on ealier...

14 So Naaman went down to the Jordan River and dipped himself seven times, as the man of God had instructed him. And his skin became as healthy as the skin of a young child’s, and he was healed!

15 Then Naaman and his entire party went back to find the man of God. They stood before him, and Naaman said, “Now I know that there is no God in all the world except in Israel. So please accept a gift from your servant.”

16 But Elisha replied, “As surely as the Lord lives, whom I serve, I will not accept any gifts.” And though Naaman urged him to take the gift, Elisha refused.

17 Then Naaman said, “All right, but please allow me to load two of my mules with earth from this place, and I will take it back home with me. From now on I will never again offer burnt offerings or sacrifices to any other god except the Lord. 18 However, may the Lord pardon me in this one thing: When my master the king goes into the temple of the god Rimmon to worship there and leans on my arm [his king was a cripple, may the Lord pardon me when I bow, too.”

19 “Go in peace,” Elisha said. So Naaman started home again.
20 But Gehazi, the servant of Elisha, the man of God, said to himself, “My master should not have let this Aramean get away without accepting any of his gifts. As surely as the Lord lives, I will chase after him and get something from him.” 21 So Gehazi set off after Naaman.
When Naaman saw Gehazi running after him, *Elijah is now standing by and watching the whole affair transpire* he climbed down from his chariot and went to meet him. “Is everything all right?” Naaman asked.

22 “Yes,” Gehazi said, “but my master has sent me to tell you that two young prophets from the hill country of Ephraim have just arrived. He would like 75 pounds of silver and two sets of clothing to give to them.”

23 “By all means, take twice as much silver,” Naaman insisted. He gave him two sets of clothing, tied up the money in two bags, and sent two of his servants to carry the gifts for Gehazi. 24 But when they arrived at the citadel, Gehazi took the gifts from the servants and sent the men back. Then he went and hid the gifts inside the house.

25 When he went in to his master, Elisha asked him, “Where have you been, Gehazi?”

“I haven’t been anywhere,” he replied.

26 But Elisha asked him, “Don’t you realize that I was there in spirit when Naaman stepped down from his chariot to meet you? Is this the time to receive money and clothing, olive groves and vineyards, sheep and cattle, and male and female servants?* Because you have done this, you and your descendants will suffer from Naaman’s leprosy forever.” When Gehazi left the room, he was covered with leprosy; his skin was white as snow.

* these were things that Gehazi longed to have for in his heart. Elisha not only saw the events transpire but the Holy Spirit showed Him what was really inside of Gehazi's heart--greed. You might ask, "What's wrong with desiring olive groves and all that other stuff?" Nothing is wrong with those things in and of themselves--but when you lie and steal from someone else in order to get them (or anything else for that matter), the Bible calls that greed!

(See the "Gehazi Incident" above before proceeding to this story--Which is better; sacrifice or obedience to God?)

10 Then the Lord said to Samuel, 11 “I am sorry that I ever made Saul king, for he has not been loyal to me and has refused to obey my command.” Samuel was so deeply moved when he heard this that he cried out to the Lord all night.
12 Early the next morning Samuel went to find Saul. Someone told him, “Saul went to the town of Carmel to set up a monument to himself; then he went on to Gilgal.”

13 When Samuel finally found him, Saul greeted him cheerfully. “May the Lord bless you,” he said. “I have carried out the Lord’s command!”

14 “Then what is all the bleating of sheep and goats and the lowing of cattle I hear?” Samuel demanded.

15 “It’s true that the army spared the best of the sheep, goats, and cattle,” Saul admitted. “But they are going to sacrifice them to the Lord your God. We have destroyed everything else.”

16 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Stop! Listen to what the Lord told me last night!”

“What did he tell you?” Saul asked.

17 And Samuel told him, “Although you may think little of yourself, are you not the leader of the tribes of Israel? The Lord has anointed you king of Israel. 18 And the Lord sent you on a mission and told you, ‘Go and completely destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, until they are all dead.’ 19 Why haven’t you obeyed the Lord? Why did you rush for the plunder and do what was evil in the Lord’s sight?”

20 “But I did obey the Lord,” Saul insisted. “I carried out the mission he gave me. I brought back King Agag, but I destroyed everyone else. 21 Then my troops brought in the best of the sheep, goats, cattle, and plunder to sacrifice to the Lord your God in Gilgal.”

22 But Samuel replied,

“What is more pleasing to the Lord:
your burnt offerings and sacrifices
or your obedience to his voice?
Listen! Obedience is better than sacrifice,
and submission is better than offering the fat of rams.
23 Rebellion is as sinful as witchcraft,
and stubbornness as bad as worshiping idols.
So because you have rejected the command of the Lord,
he has rejected you as king.”

"But those people he ordered to be killed were 'innocent' people!"

They had practiced witchcraft and idolatry LONG BEFORE Israel had left Egypt; they also opposed the Israelites on the way to the Promised Land. However, despite the fact that they knew of Israel's God, they continued their practices--burning incense to phony gods, throwing their children into the incinerators to Baal or placing them in his white hot hands and sang songs, danced, and had orgies while the music and loud festivities drowned out the childrens' screams...

They had more then four hundred years to repent of their practices but they didn't! You can't tell me that God didn't give them any grace--He did, and He had to put up with all that rot and garbage that went along with it!

Yes, He does seem to consistently abound in Grace

I tweaked it a bit so that you could understand Young's translation better. Anyways...pay special attention to what happens; Jehovah's hand picked him up "out" [out from what? His body]--and placed him in a valley full of bones. Note that this is the same hand that wrote on the wall in Belshazzar's palace...



...And later, Daniel says concerning this hand that...



In those days, the hand was your whole arm--but when Daniel says "the part" of the hand, in aramaic, he speaks of the palm (which was viewed as the outer extremity of the "hand"). So, Belshazzar saw what we today would call "the hand" of God! Another interesting find is that symbolically, hand speaks of power as well!

So if we compare this find with the scripture in Ezekiel, we find that it was the Holy Spirit [the Power of God] who carried Ezekiel "out" of his body to a certain place! This compliments the scripture in the NT that reads...


Since therefore the Holy Spirit is one in nature with God, then he is personal and not impersonal. I'd like to now focus on the word "carry"; this word has the basic idea of something being "carried" from one place to another (like crops carried from the field into a basket or a barn; another interesting find is the following observation concerning the verb for this word "carry"...



The first thing that came to mind was a lost soldier's corpse on the battlefield; some people go looking for it in order to carry it to its final "resting place". This is yet another piece of evidence that proves my old saying that "God gave you a spirit for a reason--it wasn't created to just sit there!"

On that note, I'll say this and close; you brought up a good point about denying the practice of gifts. I disagree with denying someone's gift--but the real issue is "are those gifts a person practices really from God?" b/c the Bible says...



So, with that, I give everyone my best regards.

~ JD

Did I ever say I wanted to? Did I ever make any hint of wanting to? No, I think my position since returning here has been rather clear. Why you seem to imply that it has not been is what is not clear at the moment.



Did I say you should not post? No. What I dislike is that you specifically asked my opinion on the subject - with the tone of not knowing or having an opinion - and then preached at me with an obviously pre-determined opinion when I fell for said entrapment. Such smacks of dishonesty in a vague way that I dislike, having already encountered such twice before back in Nov-Dec last year.



Tis not the discourse, but the method to which you've approached it that rubs me wrong. I should think by the amount of posting I do such would be obvious.



Let me make my position clear - spontaneous projection brought on by an outside entity is not beyond the pale in my opinion. My point though it, for the story, we cannot be clear what the precise circumstances. The same goes with Paul's friend who was "caught up to the 7th heaven".



In theory, I totally agree actually. Astral projection - true, fully out projection - is regrettably something I've only managed a couple of times despite literally years of practice. Both of those times were spontaneous and involuntary. I make do with a half-***ed technique of my own than basically involves the use of a remotely controlled astral construct. It is a regrettable deficiency of mine. But that doesn't mean that I have or shall stop trying.



How do you know they do not know God?



I caught it, I just didn't care to address it. You obviously have a binary view of the non-physical worlds wherein everything is either Christ or Satan and nothing else exists. This is not my viewpoint, nor do it think it reflects reality in the slightest. "There are more things in heaven and Earth than are dreampt of in your philosophy" fits quite nicely.



I already addressed the idea of authority - it's nothing but an anemic joke, a line that you've been sold as meaningful. If you doubt me, please go out and attempt spiritual warfare against everything spirit you encounter, armed with nothing but "authority". You will learn.



You obviously haven't read a word of what I've stated on this forum. That being the case, pray tell me why I should take you seriously in the slightest?



Did I ever say I did?



Prove it. I've seen nothing but informed rhetoric on the subject from you so far, the kind of drek any two bit televangelist would spew. You've provided less in the way of proof even than Adomaday did - something which you were critical of him about I note again - yet like him you seem to expect me to take your word as absolute truth.



You are a presumptuous creature aren't you? I have no coven, have taken no oaths, and as for demons, well if you think I'm stupid enough to associate with any I couldn't easily dispatch if necessary then you are utterly lacking in knowledge of the subject. Indeed, your "understanding" of the occult would seem derived more from Hollywood, Chick tracts, and lying Christian panic literature of the type common back in the '80s than from any real knowledge.

In short Joe, you would seem to be the sort of Christian whom it was the original mission statement of this ministry to debunk. In that capacity, I shall be glad to educate you - but you must leave your preconceptions, and your insistence to your own absolute correctness, at the door.



I've made it very clear that my path is not for everyone. Further, nowhere on this forum - or anywhere else - have I attempted to coerce anyone to the practice of magic. I've seen first hand what said practice can do to those (like yourself) whom are not capable of handling it, so please do not mistake me for the sort of individual who thinks magic is for everyone.



Of course. Like anything else in life, failure is always an option. You don't always get what you pray for - does that invalid Christ?



Let us say I'm living for a dream, and for the moment leave it at that.



So there is only Christ, Satan, and self in your world? Odd, I see numerous other people all around. See, myself I don't work a conventional job - these days my job is live in care taker (basically gopher) for my elderly parents. Tell me, if I'm living for myself as you seem to think I am, why would I do this? What other 34 year old male do you know that would throw his outside life away to live at home and take care of his parents?



My ex-girlfriend illustrated that - the failing of the Left Hand Path - with utter clarity.



Whomever gave you the idiotic idea that one needs authority to live?



1) Claiming such does not negate my point in the slightest? Why? Because as I noted, many Christian practices are in fact magical practices. The only difference is one of childish semantics.

2) Prove it.



I will check out that thread. Sounds interesting.



"Occultic" is not a word. It is the creation of some idiot preacher back in the Satanic Panic of the '80s. Now I know you have no actual experience with what you're talking about.



Bull.



In an occult sense? Obviously. As a person, no. One field does not a person make.



Cursing is a type of aggressive magic, intended to create a synchronous chain detrimental to the target. Congratulations, you've just agreed that Elisha used magic



Go read my history in the Bad Pennies thread in the Intros folder.



It's clear you haven't the slightest clue - just as I did not all those years ago - what you're talking about. Answer me this, were the authority of the name of Jesus what you claim it to be - absolute authority and power - why than does confronting some demons require more than just that to be successful?

More to the tune of "fasting and prayer" - techniques any occultist who's done more than read a couple wannabe books from Barnes & Noble (or any Christian with a real understanding of the purpose of such practices) will tell you are designed to build up spiritual force, strength, and fortitude.

Simple logic shows then that it is not some made up "authority" that does the job, but rather the spiritual force of the individual and the holy spirit acting in concert.

Actually if you compile the given definitions and look for similarities, you will find a core definition not unsimilar to Crowely's. And if I recall correctly most agreed to some extent with my modification of Crowely's definition.



Again, prove it. Make your argument (in that thread). In my experience prayer and intercession are not at all disimilar enough to certain types of magic to place them in a separate category. Indeed, it is merely a matter of semantics and dogma - not practical definition - that they are seen as different by those such as yourself who wish to be morally superior.



[sarcasm]But of course it does Soule! Moving your arm means you have a will of your own and aren't relying totally on God to make your every move! So the best thing to do of course would be to chop off your arms so you aren't tempted use your Satanic ability to move them![/sarcasm]

By all means, don't think for yourself at all! God gave us brains so that we should never ever ever use them after all!



And yet such would seem to have been part of Levitical practice from day one (look up the Urim and Thummim). Qabalistic practice also includes all that you've noted and trusting in God. The two are not mutually exclusive.



You must have missed the (numerous) places where I clearly state that I consider at most 50% of the bible to be of any value whatsoever (other than target practice). In short, I follow a god, not a book.

I must ask this though - why are you going on about Greek and Latin meanings when the original source in question is dealing with the Hebrew word?



For someone who preaches so much against individual will you seem to certainly reserve a fair amount of such for yourself.



Who is Matthew Henry and why should I care about his opinion?

Yes, an individual's emotional state and intentions can often be read from the astral plane by reading the aura (which works differently for different people).

Your point?



I would say that the ability to tweak reality around the corners, to sense and participate in the spiritual world (rather than waltz around unknowing and blind to it) is a very good thing to have. If one can handle it.