During my reading of Genesis, I came across this story about the Tower of Babel. Now, I'd heard the story of the Tower before, but I was told a completely different version. The reasonings for God's actions were always said to be that humans over reached themselves. But the text (quoted here from the New International Version, since I don't feel like retyping the relevant passages from The New Oxford Annotated Bible, that I am reading from) seems (note the emphasis) to indicate that God's intention was not to punish for over reaching, but to deliberately set us up for failure.



(Verse 10 on starts talking about the descendent's of Shem, so this is the full relevant passages and is quoted in context.)

My questions are:

1.) What purpose would God have (in your opinion) to scatter mankind as he is described as doing?
2.) What was God afraid of (if anything)?
3.) If God scattered them, (the text seems to imply that he teleported or physically displaced them in some fashion), why is this not recorded in history?
4.) In regards to verse 7, who do you think God was talking to when he said "Come, let us go down [. ..]? "

I look forward to the discussion.

They had come together to build for themselves a method by which to reach God. One cannot reach God by building for onself. Pride had been formed amongst this group of people. God scattered them to break the bonds that would eventually cause them harm....?



I dont think God was afraid. I have never considered God to be afraid of anything.



But is the term "scattered" indicative of an instant event or could it mean a dispersal over time - a more natural time frame perhaps?



"Us" - trinity perhaps?

The entire story is illogical - we know for a fact one cannot simply build a tower to reach the realm of the gods (ie the heavens) for instance, and moreover no such tower ruins of suitable size and scope has ever been found (Sumerian ziggurats in plenty, but nothing taller in the Middle East of the proper time frame). Further, as you touch on in question 3 there is no historical record of a dispersal pattern of various civilized peoples radiating from the Middle East and spreading world wide. So basically this story is clearly fictional, an explanatory myth to answer "Why do all these different people speak different languages daddy?".



I've often heard it stated that this is merely the usage of the royal "we" and YHVH was basically talking to himself (or the trinity, same thing).

Edited to add - This explanation is illogical, because the royal "we" is a peculiarity of the English language. Considering the original text is in Hebrew such an explanation is without value.

However, YHVH was originally part of the Canaanite pantheon, one of many sons of El. (Look up ancient Semetic religions and Canaanite religion on Wikipedia for a starting point) Thusly, I think this story is likely a leftover myth from before YHVH's or El's worshipers became henotheistic and then monolatrous - basically YHVH (or El, depending on how the original text reads) is talking to the other gods.



The text clearly implies he/they were acting in order to prevent mankind from achieving the impossible - "then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them." Given who is speaking, the statement made, and the value placed on submission in the various books of the Torah (as well as general familiarity with mythology) it would seem clear that the Elohim were acting to nip a possible threat to their rule in the bud in this story.

If the trinity talks to itself, that would basically mean that God is schizophrenic. This would be ungood

So, essentially they overreached themselves. Pretty much the standard answer I've always gotten.



Would you consider his actions an emotional response?



The text doesn't say, for sure. However, human migratory patterns don't support a gradual event. Thus, I am forced to conclude that if this event happened at all, (that is, if the story is literal and not allegorical), then He must've teleported the various groups around the world.

Since no such "mass teleport" is recorded in history, I can conclude one of two things:

1.) The story didn't happen at all, and is allegorical. (The likeliest event).
2.) God altered the minds of those he teleported to forget the incident. (Which brings up a whole host of other problems, not the least of which is free will and self determination).



Himself in three forms? Assuming that's true, why would the entire trinity be needed?

A theory (this is only a theory): Mass teleports and mental "cleansing" of such a large portion of humanity requires all three godforms in order to more easily make such large scale changes. Sort of like recoding a computer program, He had to rewrite large portions of code to account for the new parameters, and the presence of blocks of information moved to different sectors of the hard drive. This theory supports option two, above.

Thanks for the responses. I look forward to more discussion.

Goon

Ok, havnt heard that one before...

Heh. It occurred to me as I was writing out my response. I'm curious to know if you agree or disagree with the assessment.

Goon

you know... that kind of upsets me. why would god not want humans to be unified as a species? thats all i wish to strive for as a person. to help bring unity as a species. as the bible stated, if this did truly happen, there is absolutely nothing at all that we could not accomplish including world peace and spiritual enlightenment as a society. faster than light speed travel. perfect understanding of the universe in all its glories... to me that sounds like something that Satan would do... is it possible that this is an action attributed to god, but truly wasn't?

a side thought. maybe god did it because man focused too much on the physical instead of the spiritual, and god saw that this would lead to spiritual stagnancy. so maybe god knew if he mussed things up a bit that an even greater existence for humans would be possible. but with all the answers already there physically, people would no longer feel the necessity to seek out a higher spiritual understanding and we woulden't feel the need to ask this question to begin with. *shrugs* we would know god without understanding god, or without having a relationship with him. yeah i like that answer ^^

I disagree.

No worries. I am not sure I fully agree with it, either. It makes sense from a certain point of view, but the more I think on it, the more I think the whole story is allegorical.

Goon

Hi. I wish you all very well.

You are naturally asking all the right questions here. I love your genuine hearfelt interest.

Furthermore, I have not seen such humbleness in so many years collectively as this. How my faith in people can be lifted higher and higher at times.

Yahweh was speaking to His son, Jesus Christ. My answer is the truth. If I speak about the Bible I speak truth, and if I do not then shall we allow Yahweh Himself to kindly correct me? We know He will if it is necessary. That is the understanding of faith.

Please, I invite you all to read Proverbs 8 verse 30 and also the moment in Genesis when God (Yahweh, YHWH/YHVH transliterations) spoke and said "Let us make man in our image". Hence with godlike attributes of righteousness, justice, wisdom and peace.

Babel was an affront to all these things. Man in sheer defiance of God, and not with LOVE as its founding goal. The ascending to the heavens proclamation from the Babel builders was not necessary literal, although perhaps many believed it would occur ). It was a symbol of their intent to build something so-called "great" that would be like a birth of man's not needing God.

Normal angels need God to survive. So does man. All living things need the spirit and force God allows and provides to them with the gift of life and your free will.

Jeremiah 10:23 shows we were not actually created to operate without God. We were created to worship as spiritual beings with spiritual yearnings.

Stories are common even to this day that the Babel builders didnt care if men died whilst building the tower. This showed a lack of love. Clearly not in harmony with God or His teachings.

From Adam's loss of everlasting life on earth, death and sin.... what God does now with Christianity, then and during Israelite times is only in order to re-establish His original purpose. Everlasting life on earth for His subjects. (I wont talk about heaven and Michael for now Rev 12 etc...)

In a strong manner just like Sodom and Gomorrah and other clear defiances COUNTERPRODUCTIVE to mankind as a whole, God chose to intercede for the benefit of righteous persons. The Flood is another major occasion. Remember too that peoples spoke ONE language and didn't even eat meat until after the flood ). People were closer to perfection in the time frame of things. They were not so confused about what they were doing. Word of mouth would easily communicate Adam's creation AND in fact the exceedlingly aged men/women had lived not so many years prior. When was the last time a person on the street said to you..."hey do you remember those really old Bible persons who lived for over 900 years of age!??".

The Babel builders sole purpose was to DEFY God.

The account states that persons gradually left off from building, no doubt due to the difficulty in communicating. They dispersed and its likely (i understand personally speaking on this particular matter now) that they peopled places and countries through angelic "guidance", perhaps. God Himself scattered them to these places much like Samson went roaming throughout the Phillistine camp with Holy Spirit.

Whoever spoke of translocation. Don't worry that does occur in the Bible. With Elijah or Elisha, cant remember whom without looking it up.

Oh please keep praying to Yahweh through His son. You will find everything you wish for.

Very best,
just me. a sinner.

Hi and thanks for dropping by. Id love it if you were to post a proper introduction about yourself, but if this was just a once off drive by, then dosnt matter I guess and I wish you all the best. Thanks for encouraging us here in how we are dialoguing - I think its going well right now

Just also thinking that Philip was translocated by the HS in the NT.

How do you know? Were you there?



No, it is not. Your answer is what you believe. Unless I miss my guess by far you - in the same manner as the rest of us - have no infalible means of knowing the truth. But yet you claim infallibility when you say "If I speak about the Bible I speak truth". Hubris much?



Most assuredly not. If you look at the various cult leaders of modern times, from Jim Jones on down to David Koresh, there has been no visible "kindly correction".



None of this is stated in the text. Not a word. So praytell where are you getting it from? Merely making it up whole cloth would be my first guess.

Further, if said tower wasn't meant to literally reach the heavens, when then build a tower? Why not a colliseum, or harbor, or a 7-11 for that matter?



Even money says you believe in an eternal hell. Praytell then how to "abnormal" angels and damned souls survive?



What righteous persons? I recall some passage in Romans about "no one is righteous, not even one".....



Again, where are you getting this? It's not in the text



Presuming we flat out ignore everything we know about history, human origins, and population migrations of course. Then it becomes real easy to make claims like this.



Ca-ching! Check please! Cause you're done. The text DOES NOT state they "gradually" left off building. It says "8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city." SO - scatter first, stop building second (as a direct result of scatter).

But thanks for playing in this round of "Find The Truth"



That certainly sounds familiar.

Hi Nightmare, Anita and all,

Firstly WOW, yes if it were Philiip being released from prison by the angel - then yes he was carried "in the spirit" by a holy angel. I do recall my spiritual teaching instructinng this, YES Anita. It was a translocation in that he was carried along by a spirit.

Nightmare. How do I know? Well, I was taught by several spiritually qualified persons. Ezra expounded the scriptures to the Israelites (Ezra , Paul also to the Christian congregation along with qualified "elder men". It is well accounted in the Scriptures. So how do I know? I was taught same as all these godly persons. Please note I am not baptised, ok. I wish to make no false claims of myself.

Ok well personally speaking they visited my home from age 10. And I had many hours of instruction both one-to one and in formal Christian worship. LOL, I'm recollecting the hours. Those poor people!! Resistant heart, you see. That''s my main problem Nightmare. I often resist what I know. Some do not yet know much knowledge. Some do not wish to know. Those who wish to know are like children just as Jesus spoke. They seek. They find.

Let's assume I am speaking truth. Then confirm my words for yourself. I've already proven the existence of God. I don't so much "believe" in God. I KNOW. Hebrews 11 opens that faith is something expected, assured. In other words it isn't blind. Evidence itself points to truth. We know Alexander the Great lived, Sir Isaac Newton etc I wasn't there either. I was taught.

Yahweh had a conversation with his first living creation. Christ. I say living because Holy Spirit is not a person. It is God's active force. Ask and you will find...

Genesis 10: verses 9 and 10. I was not there but God's active force was used to record enough to speak the truth. Nimrod. Babel. A countless pantheon of gods followed and various bible scholars well support Nimrod as the likely originating factor of numerous pagan deities/gods. Historians too.

I wish to leave off the hell subject for now. Jeremiah 7 is useful here... but all living things need God's "force" to survive. All. Yes yes even the wicked and sinful ones. What, am I greater than these if I am also a sinner? Nope. I told you. Just me. A sinner. We all have free will. We will sin today and the literal tomorrow.

Sodom and Gomorrah had no righteous persons itself, true. However as per Hebrews 11 I meant Lot and his family, excluding his wife of course. Yes, yes his daughters sinned. Pray forgive. Don't Christians do this daily? Not the doing willfully of sin but the falling down in weakness.

Sodom & Gomorrah treated its neighbours, the poor etc roughly and you will also find 2nd Peter 2 verses 6, 7 and 8 most helpful ). This next bit is my own...not Holy Spirit...I think there were wars during this time. Abram fought to retrieve Lot. Anyway there was "stuff" going on.

Genesis 9 verses 3 and 4. Meat. God commanded Noah about flesh, ie eating meat. But NOT the blood. The life force.

Yes, Nightmare you're right it does sound like something else. "You will find everything you wished for". But then I seem to recall Adam dying and he was told you will not die...when eating of the [forbidden] fruit. So choose for yourself where "everything you wish for" will surely and actually be true.

With persecutions of course...Jesus did add that much as a warning to all his disciples.

Hope this is useful. Oh Nimrod, remember that Nimrod was the mighty hunter. Also that he went on to build further cities and thus spread their ideology as per Genesis 10 verses 11, 12. Also Micah 5 verse 6.

Well, good day to you all for now...lots of love, me. still a sinner!

Oops I omitted about gradually left off...building Babel...

...ok well please kindly my dear Nightmare, check your translation ) go to literal bible versions perhaps, compare. Keep knocking and you will find the truth of what I said.

Translations are actually rather infallible...original written texts are not with us (to my personal knowledge) so we rely on copies and also translators whom lets be honest decide certain passages based upon their personal or organisational teachings. Holy Ghost is a prime example. So too LORD. )

Are we to suppose that Christ spoke to His dear heavenly Father so often with a formal title? Yes granted, ABBA, yes Father but also on reading in the synagogues...his name...in the scroll of Isaiah as mentioned in the Greek Scriptures or New Testament.

Woah I'm tired. LOL. Holy Spirit is quite a powerful thing if you've ever formally preached by God given right )

Let's bounce back a few chapters to



Perhaps, He was afraid that mankind was on the same path of wickedness it had taken prior to the flood.

Hmm. Maybe, Shades. I don't know that I agree with that assessment (the 6:5 part), as it supposes there is only evil in humanities hearts. I don't believe that to be the case. (I cover this, somewhat, in another thread in the Grill (the "Everything you always wanted to ask about WonderGoon" thread, so I won't recover it here).

Thanks for the feedback.

Goon

Well what do the Scriptures say regarding this matter of wickedness?

Human interpretation is open to much opinion as we see on this very forum.

Joseph said "Do not interpretations belong to God?" (Genesis 40:8). Who could say they uncovered as many secrets as Joseph? Well certainly Daniel is most likely and to ALL you people on here this is marvellous since these two writers were surrounded by pagan customs. However they proved themselves righteous, the same as anyone can, if they so wish with God's help.

Not all mankind is wicked. Hebrews 11 shows many die righteous, and the resurrection of the dead (righteous and unrighteous as spoken by John in the book of Revelation) shows this must be true.

Furthermore NOAH and his family were righteous. They preached for 120 years. And get this, they didn't even turn ONE person to God outside of their family. Not one. (Genesis 7:7). So this is how wicked those ones destroyed in the Flood were. Jude 5, 6 and 7 attests also.

Finally may I point out that at Matthew 11:25, Revelation 4:11 it DOES state that God is Lord of heaven. The former being an instance where Lord is correctly termed. The Jews removed the name from Scripture on superstition or such like. What....?...the Israelites doing wrong yet again? Surely not.... besides Jesus preached against many Jewish religious teachers of his day.

This is a plain and simple fact. They (the Jewish religious teachers) had corrupted the original teachings and there is much Scripture as proof. Notably it seems there was not a mass of Christian baptisms (converts) from the Jewish religious hierarchy until AFTER Jesus death... The Jews were rather stubborn for their traditions and self serving practices.

Also Jesus himself calls his Father, Master (or I understand it can be translated Lord) in this following instance here at Matthew 9:37 & 38 .
Of course, I am not saying Jesus NEVER called his Father, Lord and Master also. Please forgive me if it appeared this way.

So in conclusion I say this. If YOU want to know what God REALLY requires ASK and YOU will find. Just as I am writing here, God REALLY will let you know. Ofd course asking questions is the first step. I know it was for me. Haha, and I asked more than you can perhaps imagine in terms of hours and days and weeks and years.

Lots of love, me. STILL a sinner.

Sorry everyone but I best mention that Joseph was a writer for the Egyptian people in writing out requirements for foodstuffs etc during the famine.

However, Daniel was a Bible writer for the book bearing his name.

So I say this, "has someone asked God to give me Holy Spirit on this matter, because it was not I this time." - Adomaday.

Adomaday,

Seems you may be sticking around a while - cool. Please post a proper introduction and a bit about yourself in the Introductions folder. Thanks.

*nods* In the pagan world we call this sort of thing UPG (Unverified Personal Gnosis - Gnosis in this case meaning knowledge). The standard is to respect that, while such may be valid for the individual who experienced it, it is not held to be generally applicable without corroborating evidence.



No you haven't. But we presume such is the case here.



*nods* My understanding is similar.



Doubtful, considering the spread of the various pagan faiths.







In my experience, anyone promising the world is full of it



I was quoting that which Goon provided in the original post *shrug*



If this be the case why do I have to check my translation? You contradict yourself again.

Edited to add this first part.



So are you saying that Romans verse that states all are wicked is wrong?



Oh how I wish LGR or Theo were here. (Be glad LGR seems to no longer be around, she'd likely rip you a new one Theo is much much more polite - not dissing my friend LGR just stating fact)



Oh, I'm certain he'll tell me should he want anything different - or have my Lady do so if such would get my cooperation more easily. See he's right - dealing with me is like training a cat

Well, if one goes back further one finds Genesis 3:22

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.

This was the reason for the banishment from the garden - to prevent man from becoming immortal. The next verse makes such clear. Again we find that plural self reference, and again we find the Elohim acting to prevent man from becoming more like them. This IMO further supports my interpretation of the Babel story.

Well, he or she seems to be standing up to the trial by fire well

Dear Nightmare, I would like to admit that I have definitely underestimated your reasonableness, ability to reason out matters and understand truthful words. Not to mention your personal knowledge here.

In other words. I applaud persons who are yielding such as this.

Ok, chronologically answered:

UPG, collective thinking. Indeed this occurred with the Christian congregation of the first century, although it was not always a pre-requisite method in itself for God to teach us. Please note that Moses was instructed without "riddle" to receive God's instructions as per Exodus 18:16 and later had further older men to help him, seventy if I recall.

Aaron and Miriam were both warned by God that Moses had been given this position. Also Christ. Christ himself first set up God's founding Christian teachings, some of which had greater spiritually strengthening meaning to the original disciples after he'd died.

The existence of God. Let me tell you, please, someone in the opening account of the book of Job speaks to God directly. Would they doubt the existence of God now? So then why should I doubt what I know now or from the past? Besides, faith is based on ACCURATE knowledge as per Hebrews 11 verse 1.

Therefore I have seen by value of the accurate knowledge, evidence and answers I personally received. Besides Apollos did need further teaching did he not? And yet I am not baptised. So I am not yet even righteous by faith... indeed there have been mere children more righteous than I...whom accepted the Christ and his Father, God.

Deities/gods. Yes many new gods have been setup. However the Chaldeans (Ur, Iraq, Iran phonetically speaking of course ), Assyrians, Egyptians, Persians, Greeks...all their original founding practices connect back to Babel and Babylon. SOME to Nimrod. But agreed by not all directly, rather I mean indirectly. The point being this is the origination of worship contrary to God's.

Bible translations. You don't have to check Nightmare. You can continue believing exactly as you wish. Free will. No wonder Einstein couldn't understand why God gave it to us.

Romans. And righteousness. Romans 3 verse 10 is ALL about context. A issue often overlooked when one looks at a single scripture off cuff.

Paul is talking to the Romans about the Jews and Greek communities under law. Now if Paul was perfect by man's law and considered "good" by men...he was not "righteous" by TRUE faith prior to receiving Christ. There IS a difference between being good by law and righteousness by faith. Yes even the Jews who considered themselves righteous by law...they were ALL sinners and this is the point about Romans 3. In fact it goes on to talk about this in verses 23 and 24. Being made righteous by faith and not law.

As regards your latter point...try "dikaiosune theou" (righteousness by God).

Please though despite my high mindeness here perhaps, (hmmm am I showing myself puffed up with pride owing to knowledge? If so please let God forgive me)...i know that I am at fault sinfully...and i have indeed been corrected and instructed by Christian men - the latter more so than the former I'm glad to say. Women have also spoken things to me by Holy Spirit where I needed to ensure correct Christian standards...in the past.

We are all sinners. Not just I. Today and tomorrow. David spoke as much, even before we are born sin is with us...

But please, your words are not without effect...I do know when I do wrongful things.

Why thank you



You misunderstand I think. I'm not saying that you nor I doubt the existence of God (though our personal terms may be somewhat different). I'm merely saying you haven't proved it. Proof would require unambiguous, repeatable, objectively verifiable evidence. Nothing of that nature exists to my knowledge, so the existence of God remains unproven save via UPG.



Forgive the silly question, but why does that matter?



The Assyrians, Persians, and Babylonians share roots in the Sumerian religion. The Canaanites have some minor relation there to. The Egyptian and Greek religions have nothing to do with the Sumerian religion - believe me, playing "match the god" between those three pantheons is an exercise in pure frustration, it just doesn't work. Please do some research on religions before making claims about them ok?



Or perhaps not. Look beyond the surface and a somewhat different picture vaguely appears.



Is it my fault you contradicted yourself?



Ah, so that's just one of those "apparent" contradictions. Nothing to see here move along folks!



It twould seem so on this end.



That is utterly illogical.



Tis good to know